In memory of Jesper Juul: The big interview (part 2)
What is the best thing that has happened to you in your life?
I make no distinctions between good and bad in my life. Every experience was and is valuable and has enriched my life. Even the painful ones.
You have written over two dozen books in which you give parents parenting advice.
I don't give advice. I advocate existence, not pedagogy. I have often seen parents simply replace their own maxims with my values and principles. That was never my intention.
Which book would you still like to write?
I really want to write a new version of my book «The Competent Child», which was published in 1996. A book about self-esteem and self-confidence is particularly close to my heart. Both are essential skills in today's society and important prerequisites for mental health.
Accepting children as equal human beings from the outset means recognising them as subjects instead of turning them into objects to be educated, loved or otherwise treated.
Your columns, including in this magazine, are still very popular. How difficult is it for you to write today, given your illness? (Editor's note: Jesper Juul suffers from inflammation of the spinal cord and is paralysed from the chest down)
Writing columns or texts that answer parents' questions about everyday situations or problems is never stressful for me. Not even today.
You have little personal contact with parents and children. Where do you get the certainty that your tips and recommendations are «up-to-date»?
The biggest change is that more and more parents no longer understand parenting according to the principle of reward and punishment. This means that they are deeply interested in breaking new ground and speaking a new language with their children. They have therefore reached a very creative and fruitful point where inputs like mine are not simply rejected per se, but are met with more interest. Only in this way is a change of perspective possible.
Have you ever been misunderstood?
In 1997, I wrote about equality. This word expresses the idea that children have the same dignity as adults from birth. Many people misunderstood this and thought that children are equal to adults in a democratic sense.
Children are born with all social and human characteristics.
What is the difference between equality and equality?
In a family, the adults have all the power, even if they don't realise it and don't want it. Equality means that parents take their children just as seriously as they take themselves by including their needs, wishes, dreams and ambitions and not dismissing them on the grounds of gender, age or disability.
Why do parents prefer the term equality?
Because many people are probably not familiar with the term equality. They immediately hear the word equality and interpret it to mean that children are equal to adults. But that's not the point. It's about equality. Accepting children as equally worthy people from the outset means recognising them as subjects instead of turning them into objects to be educated, loved or otherwise treated.
You need to explain that to us in more detail.
Educational methods aim to change behaviour and turn people into objects. As a result, you run the risk of losing contact with yourself and your counterpart.
Can you give an example?
Parents want to know what to do with an eight-month-old baby who doesn't want to sleep. They ask me what to do with this child and equate it to an object. They say: Mr Juul, give me a method, a tool. But there is no such thing. The question is rather: am I prepared to perceive this child as a human being or do I want a functional child?
One of your core theses is that education doesn't work.
Children are born with all social and human characteristics. In order to develop these, they need nothing but the presence of adults who behave humanely and socially. Any method is not only superfluous, but counterproductive.
As parents, isn't it enough to rely on your gut feeling?
This is only possible if you use your heart and mind. And in that order. Relying on your feelings alone is not enough.
What do children need today?
Children need a tailwind from their parents. That's what they say in Denmark. It means loving support, not reprimands. Children need as much self-esteem as possible. That is the most important thing.
Why?
It's because adults pigeonhole children from an early age. They have an image of their child and say: «That's who you are!» They are hyperactive, shy, sensitive or aggressive. The child as such, without attributes and templates, no longer exists. From the child's point of view, it takes a lot of strength to resist. And they are not capable of doing this if they don't know themselves well.
I don't want parents to replace their own maxims with my principles.
What does good self-esteem mean in the Juul sense?
It means: I know myself and accept myself with all my rough edges. Good self-esteem is like a social immune system: it fends off attacks on your own personality from the outside. Parents, teachers and even therapists often assume that children are universal: This is how you should be, and if you're not like this, you're wrong.
Don't think much of setting boundaries for children?
Today, everyone thinks you have to set boundaries. For me, that has a semi-religious flavour. Children don't need boundaries. They already have boundaries everywhere. What's important is that everyone has their own boundaries that they have to maintain towards the outside world - including children.
Can you give an example?
I have just been counselling a family in Germany with a five-year-old daughter. The girl was very provocative for her parents and older sister. The parents always said yes to him because they wanted to avoid conflict. And sometimes they tried to say no. But you can't try to say no. You can say «Maybe» or «Please wait, I need to think about it» - but you can't say no without really meaning it.
What advice did you give them?
These parents had to learn that the child feels rejected and gets angry or sad when they say no. That these feelings are okay and justified. That's just life, sometimes you feel rejected.
What was it like for the girl?
When parents say no, it simply means no. Recognising this and not finding it unpleasant was a great relief for everyone in the family, because the mother had defined a culture in the family that strived for harmony.
Is harmony impossible?
Let's say: It is possible, but it costs us all a lot. Saying no means not always having harmony. I advocate asking yourself: do I want to live in constant harmony or grow up with normal, living people?
What is the motivation to free oneself from this compulsion for harmony? Is it the pressure of suffering?
The stimulus can come from frustration. When parents or the child are frustrated, there is an impulse to try something different. My own motivation and that of my wife at the time was not to want to do things the way our own parents did. We wanted to be modern. But we didn't know what that meant. That also applies to teachers. They should ask themselves: Do I feel successful and satisfied with the way I resolve conflicts with my pupils? If you can answer this question in the affirmative, you don't have to change anything.
What would be your ideal world?
Families, institutions and societies with much less violence, abuse, addiction and neglect. I want families, organisations and society to be inspired to take themselves and their counterparts seriously, to live loving relationships and to treat each other with respect from the inside out.
What happens when you are no longer there?
It is important to me that my principles live on without me. I don't want this attitude to depend on me alone. If my person becomes more important than the vision of my organisation familylab, that's not good. I don't like being person-centred. It makes me uncomfortable. I want values to be lived and people to treat each other properly. Imagine meeting in ten years' time and still arguing about the value of equality instead of living this value and engaging in dialogue with equal dignity. I hope it won't be like that. But maybe that's naive. I don't know.
About Jesper Juul
Jesper Juul was born in Denmark on 18 April 1948. At the age of 16, he went to sea as a cook. It became his place of refuge. His time in the galley was followed by jobs as a dishwasher in bars and as a concrete labourer in construction. Later, his father reminded him that he wanted to be a teacher when he was young. Juul was unsure. In the bar where he worked, he called the head waiter and rolled the dice. Fate decided in favour of teaching.
He worked in a children's home with young people with behavioural problems and criminals. It was there that he realised how important the relationship between parents and children is. At a training course, he met the American psychiatrist and family therapist Walter Kempler. His influence led to many of the methods and views that Juul still advocates today. Together, Kempler and Juul founded the «Kempler Institute of Scandinavia» in 1979, which Juul left 25 years later to set up the first family workshop familylab in Denmark.
Familylab is a non-profit organisation that is now active in 21 countries. «With familylab, we want to improve the psychosocial health and well-being of current and future parents and children as well as professionals,» says Jesper Juul. «The aim is to create an optimal environment for collaborative, social, emotional, creative and academic learning.» Jesper Juul is the author of more than two dozen books that have been translated into many languages.
His best-known works include: «Pubertät. When parenting no longer works», «Who owns our children?», «The competent family», «Being leading wolves» and «Boundaries. Closeness. Respect». In his private life, Juul lived in seclusion in his flat in Odder, Denmark, twice divorced and single. In 2012, Jesper Juul fell ill with transverse myelitis, an inflammation of the spinal cord. He spent 16 months in rehabilitation in a Danish hospital and has been in a wheelchair ever since. He has been writing again since 2014. He died on 25 July 2019 at the age of 71 after suffering from pneumonia.
We would like to thank Jesper Juul
Until the end, he regularly wrote texts for the Swiss parents' magazine Fritz+Fränzi and answered questions from parents whenever he could. This commitment to parents is extraordinary.
Missed part 1 of the big exclusive interview? Then click here!
