«The biggest problem for parents is isolation»

Philipp Ramming, you are a parenting expert. What do your children say about your parenting?

My younger son recently said: Dad, you're lucky that I came out so well despite your parenting. Well, we're both psychologists. That's not easy for a child either.

Puberty is considered the most difficult phase in parenting. Who has a harder time, teenagers or parents?

That depends on who you ask. Young people want to go out into the world to learn something. Parents want them to learn something so that they can go out into the world. Young people think they can do everything and completely overestimate themselves.

Education is failure in instalments. But fail with dignity, competence and elegance.

And then there is despair on both sides.

Exactly. The parents only see chaos. Young people feel the deep despair of not being understood. For the parents, there is the deep despair of having failed in their parenting. However, dealing with adolescents is like sailing in stormy seas. Turning your back only causes the boat to capsize. Sailing hard into the wind and zigzagging takes time, but allows you to keep to the general direction.

Staying tough doesn't help? Yet you are known as a man of clear words.

Clear does not mean stubborn. There is no strength or consistency without flexibility and vice versa. Parents need to put the family rules back into perspective when the boys do what they want. So show them where the red line is! But it's not worth insisting on perfection or fussy adherence to rules, agreements and order. You have to negotiate. And know that Parenting is failure in instalments. But fail with dignity, competence and elegance.

We meet you in St. Moritz, where you are leading a workshop for families. Do parents argue too much?

I need to expand a little on that. The biggest problem for parents today is isolation. Every family is its own island, there is no longer an extended family and no norms that tell us what we should and shouldn't do. The world has become so diverse that we sometimes lose our bearings when it comes to parenting. Nevertheless, the need for protection, guidance and support is always there. But because we lack precisely these, many parents tend not to jeopardise their relationship with their children. This leads to negotiating rather than demanding. And: most parents react too empathically.

Parenting is not a feel-good spa, it's hard work.

Empathy is positive.

Empathy helps to understand a problem. However, this feeling must be put aside during the conflict with the offspring. Why do negotiations have to be cosy? What counts is the result, not the applause you receive. Parenting is not a feel-good spa, it's hard work. As a parent, you have to be able to step out of your comfort zone. This also includes facing up to the child's autonomous opinion.

Consistency costs a lot of energy. You don't always have that.

It costs energy and also makes you lonely. Loneliness, i.e. when you can't rely on generally accepted norms, means you have to invest more of your own energy. You have to invent and implement everything yourself. That is very, very exhausting.

Hasn't that always been the case?

When I was growing up, it was clear: when the church bells rang, you had to be at home. There were no ifs and buts and certainly no negotiating. The consequences of disobeying the rules were clear: if you weren't at home at a certain time, you had to report to the school council. The existence of such a normative culture made things much easier for parents and children alike. Whether it was better or not is another question.

Children are more likely to forgive a clear attitude than no attitude.

Would trusting that things will turn out well be an alternative?

I am very inclined to say that parents with this attitude are not doing their job. If they refuse to negotiate, to set boundaries, they are not standing their ground. Because it means that they can't stand the frustration of not being loved in the short term. If you are parenting and have to enforce rules, you are pretty much not loved at all temporarily. You may lose your relationship with your child in the short term. That's very unpleasant, but you have to be able to deal with it and put up with it. After all, parenting is our job. And children are more forgiving of a clear attitude than no attitude.

Some criticise that parenting today is too partnership-based.

I come back to this isolation. It is the plague. It means that parents are very strongly interwoven in their relationship with their child, which makes temporary conflicts more difficult.

Why?

Parents often want their children to do exactly what they want. But the children don't want that at all. To avoid conflict, the parents then demand that the children bring up their children in harmony: «Gell, you realise that this is the best thing for you.» There is something perverse about this, because the small print reads: «Child, educate yourself, but in my favour, because I am too weak to bear it when we argue about this topic.»

In the workshop you mentioned the role of values in conflicts.

We are all bound by certain value systems that we should convey through education. If we become aware of these, we can enter into negotiations with the child. In every conflict there is a negotiation and relationship level. Each has its own goal. In the family, the relationship is sometimes jeopardised in order to achieve a goal. And sometimes you also have to revise the goal in order to stabilise or enhance the relationship.

Disputes are always so emotional.

How much conflict can you tolerate? Where do you give in? Where do you reconcile? These are very central questions that parents are confronted with. The adult must be able to set an example in conflict situations. They have to come back after an argument and get the conversation going again. Parents who don't talk to their children for days after an argument are not much more mature than their children.

You have to be at peace with yourself or realise that you are not before you enter into certain conflicts.

Is it okay to show your disappointment?

In any case. You can be taciturn or visibly disappointed. There's nothing wrong with that, because children should realise the consequences of their actions. But not saying anything about their actions and bypassing education is not an option. You are the adult, you are the role model. Life is a risk. There is no risk without the possibility of failure.

Education has a lot to do with one's own biography.

Yes, it reflects a lot of things. You have to be at peace with yourself, or at least recognise that you are not, before you enter into certain conflicts. Parenting becomes complicated the moment you identify with the child, because it becomes much more difficult to remain objective and keep your distance. In addition, your own values and patterns play a major role. At times like this, it can be useful to bring in people who have an outside perspective and recognise certain patterns. After all, people very often simply get stuck in conflicts.

What are the most common conflicts?

It depends on age and subject. A reluctance to learn and school fatigue are key issues. Keeping the child in line is sometimes very difficult. Motivating, threatening, blackmailing, praising, appreciating, admiring - the whole range is involved. The dominant theme at upper school is finding the balance between one's own world and adapting to society.

Learning, doing tasks, finding a job - it's challenging. There are children who manage this well, who learn easily, and if this is easy, everything else is easier too. It is challenging when learning is difficult. There are children who learn very easily and are never at home. And there are others who find learning difficult and are never at home. Both cause stress for the parents.

And how do you deal with the media?

A huge topic! People always talk about social media. I prefer to talk about a parallel world. In this parallel world, children learn a lot and develop skills. The key question is: how much do children need to be in the local world to be successful and how much in the other world? And how often are they allowed to be in the other world? The parents are of the opinion that the children have to be in the local world because there are grades in the local world. The children are of the opinion that they learn an incredible amount in the other world. That's a classic conflict.

Just take the mobile phone away, full stop. Just like when you used to take the battery out of your torch.

Media consumption is the big issue?

The fascinating thing is that for almost 30 years I've never had parents complaining to me that their children read too much. That the kids come home, throw themselves on their bed and don't tidy up, don't brush their teeth, don't do chores - just read. That used to be the norm. Reading under the duvet? Not any more. Just the storm with the stupid mobile phone.

What is the best way to react?

Just take the mobile phone away, full stop. Just like when you used to take the battery out of your torch. Make it clear where you stand. Because a child needs sleep. I say to parents who «storm» that their child is online too often and too much: take it away! Then they say: Then the child gets angry. The parents don't want to deal with the child's reaction. But the child's anger also harbours the possibility that it will learn to manage its frustration and develop its ability to control itself.

So switching off the WLAN is not a good solution?

It depends. If you want to enforce something indirectly and avoid the confrontation, you create frustration in the child and can stay out of it. I think that's cheating. I call it «cowardice before the enemy».

So you have to endure the conflict to the bitter end?

Why does it have to come to a bitter end? I don't see it that way at all. I see the effort, the conflict, but not the problem. Because it's simply the parents' job to set boundaries.

During puberty, the mobile phone becomes a symbol of the outside world breaking into the family. The real theme is letting go and saying goodbye.

Sanctioning is the main occupation during puberty?

Puberty is a special state. It is not dissimilar to the defiant phase of three-year-olds, because independence and cutting the cord is the theme. The family is growing into something new, as is the child. The parents are upset that the child is constantly on the mobile phone and focus on the grades. The problem is that the parents can't stand the fact that the child is moving away from them, stepping into life and having new experiences without them. The mobile phone becomes a symbol of the outside world breaking into the family construct. The real issue is letting go and saying goodbye.

Keyword: Drugs?

Difficult. But children are more likely to die in road accidents than from drug abuse. If it happens that a child takes drugs, it also needs a conversation. How this goes depends very much on how you have handled the upbringing so far. Are the parents absent a lot, are the children left to their own devices? Can the children test the boundaries? Are they alone or are they accompanied? How do the kids realise when they are pushing the boundaries? Because children can only do this if they have learnt about boundaries at home and have developed an inner standard. If they know exactly what I'm doing now that the older ones won't approve of, and when they find out, oops!

An example: The 15-year-old child has smoked pot for the first time. What to do?

The question is rather: What is the goal? Do you want to let off steam as parents, or do you want your offspring to be in control of themselves in future?

They want the boy to steer clear of drugs.

This is a wish, and as with all wishes, you are free to make it. There are parents who take a urine test with their children every week. What a massive invasion of their privacy!

As a parent, you have to be there, be present, to be able to sharpen the blades. Adolescents need a lot of attention.

Specifically: What is the best way to react?

For example, if a boy comes home, has smoked too much weed and is feeling nauseous, you make sure he throws up and then goes to sleep. When he's well again, you try to talk about it. This won't be easy because he's in a bad way, he knows he's done something stupid and will therefore avoid talking because he's very ashamed. He will use all the strategies at his disposal to avoid having to talk to his parents.

And then?

Then it gets exciting. When do you grab the child? Can you do it? How do you deal with this crossing of boundaries? Is it really so bad if they try something now? Why are you so insanely afraid of falling? Why do you have the indignation, the morals, but not the confidence that the child can deal with it? This is where your own biography often comes into play. That you have only just survived something yourself, for example drugs, and are now transferring all your fears onto the child. This primal fear weakens your negotiating position. It is often particularly difficult during puberty because the child's teenage years are a permanent reminder of their own development. The claim to always be a one hundred per cent super parent is exaggerated.

They say that puberty primarily means a loss of control.

Yes, you experience real powerlessness. Puberty is a storm. It's pure chaos in adolescents. They actually want exactly what we want, but they don't know how and they don't want us to tell them how to do it. As parents, all we can do is set guard rails. Tell the teenager what is possible and where the limit has been crossed. What is feasible, what is not? And what is negotiable? There is one condition: you have to be there, be present, to be able to sharpen the blades. Adolescents need a lot of attention.

Parents often feel ashamed.

Shame is always there. Especially for mothers. Less so for fathers, they have it especially with sons, if they don't have the masculine quality of decision and are wafting around somewhere.

Imposition is not okay?

Puberty is a time of searching. Enduring the children's searching movements is difficult. How well the parents cope with this is also a measure of success.

Should we talk about endurance?

It depends on how you communicate it. As a parent, you shouldn't walk in and be told: Solve your own problems!

How do you get round this?

By being clear. Say: Look, you need to learn a trade. How do you want to go about it? How do you want to do it? Hang around? And then?

When the child answers: But I don't know what?

It is important to encourage him to take action, to do something. It's about sticking with it and talking to the child. Find out what they need so that they can make a decision. Whether they are afraid to make a decision. Whether they want to do something else, look at the world for example.

Keyword: Cancel an apprenticeship?

Breaking off is always a difficult decision. Do you run away from something or turn to something new? The main thing is that the child does something and doesn't fall into idleness. Carrying newspapers, going for a walk, looking after the neighbour's dog - whatever. Just do it. Take the plunge.

An example from practice?

Young people have to look for an apprenticeship in Year 8 and organise a taster position. One of the patterns I know is that parents get very upset because the child hasn't written their letters or done their phones yet. Totally idiotic!

Why?

How are teenagers supposed to know how to use a phone like this? If someone is already shy, how is he or she supposed to have the courage to pick up the phone and make such an important call? To apply for a job, you first have to know how to do it. That means practising how to make a phone call or write a letter. Young people need to know that there is a threshold to overcome. And parents need to help, guide them rather than put pressure on them.

How?

During puberty, it's very important to give guidance, examples and examples. You have to offer the boys a starting point, even if they then say: That's not how I do it. And understand their frustration. But don't let up in achieving the goal.

As a parent, you will never get it right during puberty. They don't understand, are unfair and so yesterday's news.

You spoke in a lecture about «dysfunctional children». What do you mean by that?

It is dangerous when parents are convinced that the children just have to follow their instructions and then everything will work out fine. If, for example, both parents are heavily involved in their professions, everyday life at home is usually very well organised. Everything has to fit together. Everyone has to do their part to make it work. This requires well-functioning children. However, apart from minimising damage, there is no added value in adapting. Self-worth is only created by overcoming difficulties independently. Strong children recognise this and make their own learning loops, take detours, visit friends and sometimes light up something exciting. Then they don't just function, but learn for life.

Is it even possible to get it right in education?

No. As a parent, you will never get it right, at least during puberty. They don't understand, are mean and unfair and, above all, so yesterday's news. Have faith in the last ten or fifteen years of parenting! And keep at it. Even if it doesn't look like it, your sons and daughters will fall back on it when it counts.