Mrs Stamm, why do fathers often only feel like babysitters?

She is the voice that pleads for more serenity, less therapy culture and a frenetic approach to child rearing: Margrit Stamm. Switzerland's most prominent educationalist
has analysed the social ideal of the family and the role of the father in particular. The self-confessed feminist takes up the cudgels in favour of fathers, many of whom are «under the hammer» of their partners. In her new office in Aarau, she talks about her research and reveals what her examination of fathers' and mothers' roles has to do with her own biography.

Mrs Stamm, your new book is about fathers, but most of it is about mothers. Why is that?

Family can only succeed together. Fathers need to stand up for their needs and mothers need to make room for fathers in parenting. That's my approach. As a mother, I'm fascinated by the type of motherhood that is prevalent in our society today and which totally subsumes women.

What fascinates you about it?

That this overbearing, all-encompassing motherhood no longer corresponds to our life situation and lifestyle.

You have to explain that.

Today, women have a good education, are employed, earn their own money and are independent. But as soon as they become mothers, a kind of re-transformation takes place: they give up some or all of their independence and experience this intense motherhood.

Where does that come from?

There are various reasons for this. On the one hand, neoliberal policies are responsible. They tell women: You can do anything, the world is open to you, study, have a career, have children, but organise yourselves. At the same time, attachment research explains how important the relationship between mother and infant in the first years of a child's life is for the child's basic trust. Thirdly, medicine focuses on mothers, emphasising the importance of a calm, healthy pregnancy, etc.

What are the consequences?

All of this led to a focus on women, giving them the main responsibility. This gave rise to the new ideal of perfect, intensive motherhood, which almost all women adopt, strive for and stage-manage.

From almost all women?

Yes, because part-time or full-time working mothers also have this image within them and want to fulfil it. They look for the best daycare centre, the best nanny, the best day school.

Realising the new role model requires a lot of strength. Not all men have this.

You often hear the phrase: Mums, relax! Do you agree with this call?

Personally, I don't think it's right to always pillory women when things don't go well in the family or in bringing up children. I call for the foundations of our social systems to be shaken.

Why?

To enable young men to play an active role as fathers, for example. Including all those who climb the career ladder in the traditional way.

Is that what men want?

Almost all of the men we interviewed grew up in traditional circumstances, i.e. with a father who was very busy at work and therefore often absent and worked within traditional power structures. Many of these young fathers now say: "That's no longer a model for me. But they lack a new role model. And the majority work in hierarchical, old-fashioned structures. So these young men find themselves in a dilemma: they want to be a modern father, work less and be at home more. But realising this new role model is difficult in their environment or would require a great deal of courage and inner strength. Not all men have that.

Can you explain that?

Men are under huge social pressure to conform to what is considered a good father. I therefore assume that their statements in many studies are socially conformist and correspond less to what they really think. In addition, many of the men who are now 35 to 40 years old have been socialised in such a way that they have internalised the role of breadwinner. This also has an influence on the role of the man at home.

In what way?

If the woman is mainly responsible for the household and children at home, the man takes on the role of the man in command. He brings home the money, but she is the boss at home. The result is a stalemate in which hardly anyone can move.

Most men want to have more time for their children.

Some couples seem to work well that way.

I am referring to our investigations. These have clearly shown that things are different in the heart than in practice. Most men would like to have more time for their children, they would also like to reduce their workload, but it is either not possible for economic reasons or because the company culture does not allow it.

What role do economic reasons play?

They are often the deciding factor. Women generally earn less than men, even in the same position and with the same level of training. Or women work in professional fields that pay less. If women become pregnant, the question arises: How do we do it now? Then the woman reduces her workload or stops working altogether. In other words, the parent who earns more continues to work full-time. I call this the traditionalisation trap.

Does this also have to do with the circumstances? In Switzerland, there is only a short maternity leave and no paternity leave.

Yes, I find it unforgivable that a country like Switzerland cannot enshrine paternity leave and longer maternity leave in law. But we also have to hold women to account: Many of them are very independent and self-confident. But quite a few still expect men to bring most of the money home. This is reflected in their career choices: So many women choose gender-typical professions that are poorly paid and do not lead to a life as an independent provider, but rather to financial dependence.

What would be the solution?

If I could, I would slow down «the rush hour of family life», i.e. reduce the stress of parenting between 30 and 45 if you have to bring up children and have a career at the same time. After all, it's only a short period of time in your working life when you have to cut back. Companies should build on this. A more egalitarian family model should be developed in which the father is integrated from the outset and is no longer an exotic figure.

Fathers today invest significantly more time in their families and children than in the past.

In your book, you take up the cudgels in favour of fathers. Why is that?

Fathers invest significantly more time in their family and children than in the past and than the mainstream would like to admit. Our time budget analysis makes this abundantly clear. They change nappies, go to swimming lessons or va-chi gymnastics and do countless laps of the playground. Nevertheless, the prejudice that men are the lazy sex and do less around the house persists. The wide range of tasks that fathers do on average is completely ignored.

The question of whether men are good fathers is always measured by how present they are at home and how many hours they spend with their offspring. What is more decisive is the relationship they build with their children and the responsibility they take on in the family, not only immediately after the birth, but also in later childhood and during puberty.

According to your study, around a fifth of all mothers act as «gatekeepers». What do you mean by that?

These mothers embody a kind of controlling body, they block the partner's family involvement as a gatekeeper.

What does that mean in concrete terms?

This role is characterised by territorial behaviour in highly exaggerated and, above all, contradictory requirements, which ultimately cause the father to fail. They treat the father like a babysitter, make long lists and later check that he hasn't forgotten anything.

What are the consequences?

These mothers accept the man as a partner and breadwinner, but not as a fatherly figure. Their standards automatically lead to him failing. For the mother, this in turn confirms what she already knew: that she has to do everything herself. Such controlling behaviour usually happens unconsciously and unintentionally, and many mothers see no connection between their own behaviour and the consequences for their partner.

What would they be?

That he reacts to her excessive demands and the withdrawal of the child by withdrawing, and perhaps even by working even more intensively.

Do the men even want to stay at home?

I think that men secretly prefer to go to work, because everyday life with children is very strict. One family day a week is enough for most men. And it's not that easy to find time to look at yourself and find out what you really want alongside your job and family.

The call for new fathers is always also a call for new mothers.

Is it possible to be a modern father?

The call for new fathers is always also a call for new mothers. If men are to develop into active and more egalitarian fathers, it depends on both partners. Men must fight with courage and commitment against a highly resistant professional world so that they can reduce their workload in favour of family commitments. Women must be prepared to leave autonomy and responsibilities to their partner at home and learn to reduce their own zones of influence and become more self-critical.

You say that good fathers make a long-term commitment. Why is that so important?

It is essential for the healthy development of the child. Especially during the school years and puberty, the father figure takes on a whole new meaning. This is often forgotten in the discussion about new fathers. It is very important for the child to experience that the father can get involved with the child's problems and questions at school and during puberty. Being a father is not just about rocking the baby to sleep. A longitudinal study from Austria shows that the father becomes increasingly important as the children get older.

What should fathers do then?

They have to deal with their daughters more. It is often easier with sons because there is almost always a common interest, such as sport. Fathers usually play more with sons. But daughters also need a male role model in order to acquire a realistic image of men. Girls who have a good relationship with their father handle relationships more carefully as teenagers. It is often forgotten how important the father is in adolescence. He becomes a kind of neutralising figure when, for example, a daughter suddenly says to her mother: «I hate you!»

To what extent do mothers need to rethink their own role?

The mother is the centre of gravity in the father-child relationship. If the father feels the trust of his partner, he does more in the household and in the family because he doesn't feel like an exotic or a breadwinner, but as an equal. And so he also develops a better relationship with the children.

I am lucky to have a husband who was already very progressive back then.

What was it like when you became a mum?

I was socialised in such a way that I was told that I was solely responsible for the well-being of our children. I wasn't overloaded with expert knowledge in the way that mothers are expected to be today. The child was also not the centre of attention as it is today. Because today the tenor is: please fulfil your children's needs from the start, otherwise they might not thrive and if they suffer any damage, it's your fault.

You were also once a full-time housewife.

I was at home for eight years and was often desperate, causing many an argument. But I was lucky enough to have a husband who was already very progressive back then. He reduced his workload so that I could study.

You fell into a hole when your children moved out.

Our children both went abroad within a year of each other. That caught me completely unprepared. One of the things that saved me was work. That was important, because a child who moves away takes a piece of their own identity with them. Then it's good to have another part of your identity at your disposal.

What advice do you have for young parents?

A couple should disclose their career aspirations to each other before a pregnancy and say what they really want. The woman should be aware of what it means to leave her job. It is then important to set the rules for the coming years. As the children grow up, you should discuss again who will take on which responsibilities. Who is the contact person for problems with colleagues or at school? Who will study with them, who will drive them to their hobbies?

What do you wish the mothers?

Women should not always think about what they can do to become an even better mum. Because the vast majority of them are already really good mums. However, it is also important for the child's development to recognise their own needs and to live up to them instead of putting them on the back burner. I hope that mums will have the courage to be a little less perfect and rebel a little more.