«Young children are often re-educated»
Andrea Maihofer is a committed woman who has asserted herself in the male-dominated university cosmos. Ironically, she deals with feminism, gender and norms. A conversation about role models and how they influence our lives.
Mrs Maihofer, do you often receive mail from outraged men?
Mostly rather nice ones. Sometimes older men sit in my lectures. They send me an email saying that they only now understand what gender studies is all about. You are very involved in the anniversary of women's suffrage. For many people, women's suffrage was something of a chivalrous gesture on the part of men, a gift to women. People don't realise that it was actually an injustice. I find that remarkable.
It shows that there is no awareness of injustice in our society. Women who speak out on such issues are seen as suffragettes. In fact, women often have the role of the killjoy, the spoilsport, when they raise these issues. I find this problematic, as it is about discrimination and a constitutional mandate that has not been honoured in many respects.
The whole gender debate has already achieved a lot.
Yes, many efforts have been made and much has been achieved. Even the gender-specific division of labour at home is changing, for example fathers want to be more present. But unfortunately there is also a backlash. Some would like to turn back the clock. This is expressed in many ways.
«Certain political circles would like to turn back the clock.»
Andrea Maihofer, gender researcher
For example?
For example, on the issue of the special status of the traditional family or gay marriage. Conservative forces are also opposed to sex education in schools. You may remember the discussion about the famous sex kit.
Can the wheel be turned back?
No. The classic arrangement in which the man sees himself primarily as the family breadwinner while the woman is responsible for housework and bringing up the children seems to be less valid than ever. Most couples want a more egalitarian model. And more and more are living it.
Many say that the traditional model has less potential for conflict.
That is true. Less negotiation is needed. Whether both are happier is another question. What's more, women currently do most of the unpaid work. Looking after and bringing up children at home, caring for relatives - all of this is socially necessary but unpaid women's work. The moment women earn the same as men, the question of who wants to or should stay at home will arise anew. And this will also change the way children are brought up.
«When women earn as much as men, family work will be discussed anew.»
Andrea Maihofer
What do you mean?
The division of labour and family work will be fairer. Also, one will no longer be associated primarily with masculinity and the other with femininity and socially valued differently. This means that an important area of male dominance will disappear. This will have an impact on child rearing. Not least for this reason, some would prefer to reverse these developments.
Not all men want to be macho.
As I said, many men no longer just want to be responsible for gainful employment, but want to be present fathers and therefore reduce their working hours. However, they often hear doubts about their masculinity or even their work ethic. So a lot still needs to change here.
Are you saying that upbringing determines gender?
Yes, the assertion that men and women are inherently different, that women are passive and emotional, men active and rational and therefore women are not capable of higher education or scientific work, has long since been refuted historically. This naturalisation of gender differences, as it is known scientifically, has served to justify denying women access to educational institutions and professions or the right to vote.
Gender research is based on different assumptions
Yes, the differences between the sexes are largely socially and culturally based. We also assume the plasticity of the brain, as is now common in the natural sciences, or epigenetic processes.
Can you explain that?
This means that the way people live influences the way their brains develop. Gender differences are strongly linked to current social practices and upbringing.
So the fact that a child becomes a boy or a girl depends on the culture?
Especially from socialisation and our gender norms. What does this mean for the children?
What does this mean for the children?
Parents often have very clear ideas about how a boy should be brought up and how a girl should be brought up. Some claim that they make no distinction. They say: «The boy picks up the car and the girl picks up the doll, just like that!» But they don't realise that since the child was born, they have done, thought or felt many things that make the boy reach for the car.
We all grew up thinking that there were natural differences between men and women that had to be honoured.
Yes, this is emphasised time and again by conservatives and the church. They say that the aim of equality is nothing other than re-education. I often hear that.
«Girls often find ways to circumvent clear gender boundaries.»
Andrea Maihofer
You say: You can also turn the argument around.
Yes, young children are always «re-educated», i.e. children are not simply left to their nature, but are brought up in a certain way that is socially desirable.
What does gender-equitable education mean?
A more gender-equitable education is not re-education. It is a different kind of education to that which seeks to develop traditional heterosexual gender differences and thus perpetuate inequalities between the sexes and sexual orientations.
What if a boy goes to kindergarten wearing a skirt?
If the boy is lucky, he won't hear any sanctioning remarks. But most of the time he is unlucky and is told not to do it again. Children are expected to be clearly identifiable by gender and to dress accordingly. More so for boys than girls, by the way.
I know a lot of girls who would rather be boys.
Yes, that really is the case at a certain age. Girls often find ways to circumvent or expand this clear gender definition.
«Children are not simply left to their own devices, but are brought up in a very specific way.»
Gender professor Andrea Maihofer
What can parents do?
Take a closer look. Unfortunately, so much happens unconsciously. This is also true for me, even though I am very involved with this topic. I also send out a lot of signals that are not all so traditional, but of which I am still not aware. It's not always just about gender.
But what?
What I think a flat should look like, for example. What do I find beautiful? I have my own ideas and sometimes they are totally unreflected. But I use them to convey certain things about my self-image, and this in turn is significant because I say, think or do it as a woman.
A very complex story!
Yes, we do so many things unconsciously. And don't realise it. We also see it in schools. If you ask the teachers, they treat all children the same. But that's not true. When conflicts arise, gender stereotypes often come into play immediately - boys are said to be aggressive and girls are good. Many teachers don't see any contradiction in this. They find it natural that boys are more lively, but at the same time they find it annoying and strongly sanction this behaviour. On the other hand, they support the girls in their behaviour and less in their self-confidence with regard to their performance.
Speaking of pink and blue: when does that start to play a role?
Very early on. When the children are on the ward after birth, pink or blue are already important, whether it's for name tags or clothing. The parents want it that way, doctors and carers tell me. Children notice these kinds of distinctions from the very first second. One of the first questions after birth is always: «What is it?» We know from research that it is precisely this gender categorisation that is significant for the different ways in which children are subsequently treated. This does not remain without effect.
Why do we find it so important what gender the child is?
There is a heterosexual gender order in our society. This is normatively powerful. It has certain signs, colours, clothes and toys. Parents usually want their children to grow up in this conformity.
You often read that girls are better at school? Is that true?
There are differences, as became clear at Pisa. But they are not biological. It used to be said that women were not capable of rational thought and therefore not able to attend grammar school. Today, however, women are more likely to graduate from high school and often do better at university than men. This shows that these statements were cultural gender perceptions that have nothing to do with reality.
What was it like for you?
I come from an academic household, so my parents took it for granted that I would study. But not that I would do a doctorate. I had to do a lot of convincing for that. In the end, I would probably have done it without my parents' approval, but my parents' opinion was very important to me. My mother in particular was sceptical. Afterwards, however, my parents were very supportive.
Why do more girls than boys attend grammar school?
Because the way they are brought up makes grammar school learning more appealing to them than an apprenticeship. Girls learn, boys work.
«Young men no longer want to be fathers after work.»
The Basel gender professor Andrea Maihofer
And why are there so few female engineers?
That is culturally conditioned. There are many regions where this is not the case. In Northern Europe, for example. There, girls have more access to the natural sciences and boys to languages. As a result, the choice of degree programme is much less clear-cut. And in Asian countries, many women work in computer science.
Women get the better degrees at university, but few women become professors.
Yes, women are slightly in the majority at university at the beginning and often perform better, right up to the doctorate. But it is the men who at least habilitate at university, and it is the men who become professors. This, in turn, has nothing to do with nature, but with life choices.
And perhaps because it is often difficult to reconcile work and family life.
Indeed. A lot of research shows that women want a work-life balance, but when society no longer supports them, they often opt for the traditional route.
The economy is not yet in favour of part-time work.
We know that people who work 80 per cent are often more motivated. Nevertheless, part-time work is not being implemented. Things have to mesh to bring about change. And yet I believe that this development is unstoppable. Family is becoming more and more important for people emotionally, regardless of the form it takes. That's why the demands for compatibility will become even more insistent in the future. And from both men and women.
What does Generation Z think?
In our current study, we are interviewing young adults between the ages of 20 and 25. On the one hand, we have an increasingly large group of men who do not want to be absent fathers, but who want to be present every day and be at home at least one day a week. That wasn't the case 15 years ago. Nevertheless, they all believe that they have to work in such a way that they can support a family. On the other hand, it is astonishing how few young women see themselves as breadwinners.
Men want to be at home more. In other words, the idea of masculinity has changed.
Absolutely. They want to do things differently to their own fathers. Whether they can realise this wish is another question. What speaks against it? There are many reasons. The employer, the work culture, the idea that you can't work part-time in management positions. Although there are enough experiments to show that it works.
What speaks against it? There are many reasons.
The employer, the work culture, the idea that you can't work part-time in management positions. Although there are enough experiments that show that it works.
About the person
Andrea Maihofer, 63, is a philosopher and sociologist and has been Professor of Gender Studies at the University of Basel since 2001. Her research specialises in social and gender theory. She comes from Freiburg (Germany), lives in Basel and is the mother of a grown-up son.
