«The image of the cuddly leopard is a modern one»

A Thursday afternoon in May. The journalist reaches for her mobile phone and taps a number into the display at the agreed time. «Höpflinger,» answers the sociologist. They enquire about each other's health, ask about the children and grandchildren and are pleased that the other person has survived the lockdown well. Everyone is healthy. We spoke to François Höpflinger once before, in a café at Zurich main station at the beginning of February. At the time, nobody could have guessed what would befall us in the coming weeks and months - and that our interview on the subject of grandparents would have to be supplemented with a few important questions.

Mr Höpflinger, older people in particular belong to the risk group in the coronavirus pandemic. During the lockdown, grandparents
grandparents and grandchildren should therefore not see each other. What are the consequences?

This temporary ban on contact had no noticeable impact on relationships within the families. Family systems are very dynamic and therefore stable; they can withstand something like this.

Many grandparents have said that they really miss the meaningful task of looking after their grandchildren.

That is correct. But the burden on mothers and fathers with growing children was much greater. They suddenly had to shoulder everything on their own: Working from home, homeschooling, childcare and household chores. Added to this were uncertain health and economic prospects for the future. This situation has pushed many families to the limits of their resilience.

And now? Even after the lockdown, the older generation remains a risk group.

We now know a lot more about the virus and the consequences of the disease than we did four or five months ago: Which age group is actually most frequently affected, which gender? What role do children play? Some pre-existing conditions lead to a really critical course of Covid-19 when infected, others less so than initially feared. This allows the risk group to be defined more precisely and narrowed down.

What does this mean for families?

That every case, every contact between grandparents and grandchildren must be considered and assessed individually. Is there an increased health risk when grandparents meet their children and grandchildren, or is the risk manageable?

«Family systems are very stable. They can withstand a contact ban.»

After Daniel Koch, then head of the «Communicable Diseases» department at the Federal Office of Public Health, said at the end of April that grandparents could safely hold small children, many families received calls from their grandmas and grandpas.

They wanted to see their grandchildren again.

Exactly. But that was not an easy decision for many parents.

Clearly, people were unsettled. In my opinion, the decision on whether grandparents and grandchildren should be allowed to have contact again should lie with the middle generation, i.e. the children's parents. It seems important to me that the generations talk to each other openly and honestly: What are my needs regarding this topic, what are my fears? We need to stay in dialogue.

Where will we be in summer 2020? What does a possible contact between grandparents and grandchildren look like?

I think we are in a kind of transitional phase. The generations are no longer living as strictly separated from each other as they were in the spring. But we won't be returning to the original status quo for some time yet.

«Grandparents used to be seen as respected figures who children approached almost with reverence.»

What does that mean? Sunday outings with parents or grandparents are possible, but summer holidays together are not, because you would be too close?

Yes, for example. Family time together is probably spent more outdoors. In places where distances can be better maintained. The concept of the «cuddly grandparent» is also a fairly modern one. In the past, grandparents were seen as respected figures who children approached almost with reverence. The grandfather read a book to the grandchildren, but didn't romp around a meadow with them. Nobody wants to go back to that situation.

Three months earlier: It's 3 February 2020, François Höpflinger gives us an interview in Café Oskar at Zurich's main railway station. It's about the role of grandparents in families. The importance of grandchildren in the lives of grandfathers and grandmothers and how close the generations are - and hopefully will be again at some point.

Mr Höpflinger, are you a committed grandfather?

You'll have to ask my four grandchildren. They are now between 11 and 14 years old and no longer need much supervision. But when my daughter's children were small, my wife and I looked after them two days a week. The other grandparents took over two other days and the father one day. My daughter works in science, otherwise it would not have been possible for her to pursue her profession.

«65-year-old men can romp around again and have the new media explained to them.»

Respect, that sounds like a great effort and southern European conditions. Families in countries like Spain and Italy are said to be very cohesive.

Grandparents who look after their grandchildren in southern European countries usually work full-time. That is true. But they also have no other choice if they want to support their own children. The infrastructure in these countries is so poorly developed that the adult children are forced to rely on their parents. Otherwise they would not be able to work. And unemployed parents are also dependent on their grandparents for support. This often leads to tensions within the family.

And that is different in Central and Northern Europe?

In Sweden, for example, where the crèche system is well developed, grandparents have the choice of how much they want to be involved, which means that grandparents look after their grandchildren less intensively but more often. The relationship between the generations is improved by good socio-political structures. Sweden, Germany and Switzerland are therefore among the countries in which grandparenthood has a positive effect on life satisfaction.

At the same time, the childcare network in Germany is not optimally developed and not everyone can afford a place in a crèche.

In Switzerland, grandparents have to take on more caring work than in Germany, for example. You are right. Grandparents are an important resource in this country when it comes to balancing work and family life. To give you some figures: The Federal Statistical Office has calculated that grandparents look after their grandchildren for 160 million hours a year and provide an estimated 8 billion francs worth of unpaid care. But it depends which costs you take into account: just the money that parents would have to pay the daycare centres for a place, or also the loss of earnings for grandparents who are still working? Some grandmother initiatives are putting up resistance to this.

They are campaigning for their commitment to be more socially valued and, in some cases, financially compensated.

It's not that these women don't want to look after their grandchildren. Rather, they want freedom of choice that allows them to decide for themselves how much or how intensively they care for them. These grandmothers are in favour of expanding crèches and extracurricular daycare structures.

Studies now show that grandchildren - and their care - have a very positive effect on their grandparents.

First of all, the grandparent-grandchild relationship is a relationship that has clearly developed positively over the last three decades. More grandparents today get on better with their adult children than was the case in the past, and conflicts have become less frequent. Grandparents who are involved with their grandchildren feel subjectively younger than non-involved grandparents of the same age.

Why is that?

Grandchildren offer the opportunity to keep in touch with the adult children, to connect with the future of the family. At the same time, they offer the opportunity to participate in the childhood phase again without having to take on full responsibility, as was the case with their own children. 65-year-old men can romp around again, play and have the new media explained to them. When our grandchildren were small, we often got chatting to young parents in the playground. My wife and I really enjoyed that.

Are these analogue educational principles always given?

Certainly not. But if the grandparents only look after the grandchildren occasionally, the tolerance on the part of the adult children is certainly greater than if the grandparents are part of the everyday childcare network. For example, when it comes to spoiling. Parents usually want grandparents to get involved without interfering too much and not to cultivate parenting styles that contradict their own.

You can discuss and decide a lot of things in advance. But things often look different in everyday parenting.

This means that contentious issues between the adult children and their parents have to be negotiated again and again in order to find a common denominator. This is not always easy. However, today we have many people who know how to deal with complex social situations and can also apply these strategies in their private lives.

But when is the point at which you should tell your parents that they should behave differently in certain situations with their children?

When it comes to things that are really important to you. Nutrition could be such an issue, or media consumption. At times, I wasn't allowed to bring my tablet to the nursery and I had instructions from my daughter about which films my grandchildren weren't allowed to watch. I respect that and stick to it. There has to be a certain set of rules that are followed as much as possible. This requires a good relationship between grandparents and adult children or children-in-law, otherwise it won't work. Children know very quickly who is allowed to do what. A certain inconsistency in parenting does not always have to be harmful. On the contrary. If everyone involved has the same attitude - morally, politically, religiously - then it becomes very difficult for the children. The family then forms such a tight unit that the children are almost suffocated and cannot develop their own personality. It is only important that the values and parenting styles do not completely contradict each other.

Our fathers' generation seems to be catching up on a lot of things that they missed out on with their own children. It's not uncommon to hear the sentence: «You never used to do that with us.»

Yes, something has changed. For one thing, some men can catch up on things with their grandchildren that they couldn't do in the past for work reasons: Spending time with children, playing, hiking and doing crafts. On the other hand, men can contribute their social side as grandfathers. Freed from professional status and performance aspects, they can be carefree, childish and fun.

And another social trend can be observed: We are becoming parents later and later - and therefore also grandparents. Will future generations still be fit enough for their grandchildren?

The trend towards later parenthood will not have a major impact. This is because the increase in birth spacing runs parallel to the increase in life expectancy. They balance each other out. Today, people are living to a healthier age than was the case with the post-war generation. People are staying healthy for longer, which is an important prerequisite for a good relationship. They are also able to take on new things and romp around with small children for longer than was previously the case.

Grandchildren also get older, develop new interests and at some point no longer need to be looked after to the same extent as in their childhood years. Is it then time to return some of the attention they have received to their grandparents?

When grandchildren and grandparents have such a close relationship, it's great, of course. But as you said, children develop their own interests. And just like the relationship with your own children, the relationship with your grandchildren must also change. If you go on holiday with your teenage grandchildren, they may be out all day or bring their friends with them. My wife now finds herself in the situation more and more often where she comes to our daughter's house and the grandchildren aren't there. She then often does the laundry for our daughter.

«The quality of the relationship depends on how well you understand each other.»

And how is it for your wife?

She is glad that she can make herself useful. But of course she wonders how long she will be needed there at all. Families are always dynamic and never remain constant. If you don't accept change, you run into problems. There is the concept of parental and filial maturity, where adult children and their parents meet as equals, and there is probably also the concept of grandparental maturity.

Can you interfere in your parents' affairs?

This is difficult. If your own words don't work, you can ask friends or other people close to you to speak to your parents. There are not many other options. You can't educate your own parents, the best thing to do in this case is to show mutual tolerance.

In our globalised world, the distances between generations are becoming ever greater. The grandparents live in Linz, the children with their grandchildren in Zurich. What does this mean for the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren?

Thanks to the new media, a close relationship can also develop over such distances, even if it is not an everyday relationship. The quality of the relationship depends surprisingly little on the frequency of contact.

From what then?

It depends on whether you understand each other, whether you have common values, whether you tolerate each other.

In Switzerland, too, the crèche network and extracurricular childcare are being expanded. Will there be less demand for grandparent support as a result?

It is likely that herding assignments will become more selective. For example, grandparents will continue to be an important backup for the school holidays. Or they can step in if the child is unable to go to nursery due to illness, but mum and dad still have to work. As is already the case in Scandinavian countries

More about grandparents:

• What to do when grandparents interfere in the child's upbringing?
  If children of working mothers and fathers are regularly supervised by their grandparents, the question arises as to how they should be involved in their upbringing.

• Authority: How strict is our parenting? We asked families how they deal with authority in their day-to-day parenting.

• Growing up with grandparents. How does that work?