André Stern, are children not allowed to set any boundaries?

The hall in the Maihof in Lucerne seats around 480 people. Anyone who hasn't found a free seat stands on the edge, squats, sits on the cold stone floor. A man stands on the stage, his long hair tied back at the nape of his neck, wearing a white shirt, jacket and chequered scarf. André Stern spreads out his arms, climbs up and down the few steps to the auditorium again and again, kneels in front of the audience, stands up again - and almost never stands still. Meanwhile, he talks about his experiences as a child, acquiring all the necessary knowledge everywhere but at school. He never went to school, just as his sons do today. André Stern talks about the value of children's enthusiasm, of free play, about the fact that everything will be fine if parents allow their children to develop freely, treat them as equals - indeed, in a way, don't treat them like children. No, he doesn't want to criticise or even abolish the existing school system, he just wants to show himself and his own children that things can be different. With this message, the author («... and I never went to school. Stories of a happy child») and musician repeatedly fills lecture theatres in France, Austria, Germany and Switzerland.
André Stern took the time to talk to us before his lecture at the Maihof in Lucerne.

Mr Stern, you seem very at peace with yourself. What did your parents do right?

I wasn't brought up to think in terms of right or wrong, good or bad. That's not how I function. I never compared myself to others. And you're right - I owe that to my parents.

In what way?

The problem is that when it comes to children, people start from their own experiences: What did I experience with my parents? How did they treat me? Or they orientate themselves on the models and concepts of so-called parenting experts.

Your parents didn't do that?

No, they came from us children.

That means?

You have asked yourself the question: What is the child looking for? What are their very own needs? They didn't send my sister and me to school, for example, because they would have suffered in their own school days. They decided much more in favour of the needs, dispositions and rhythm of their children - in other words, not against something, but for something.

You keep emphasising that you don't want to win anyone over to a particular parenting method. But do you still have a message?

I think we need a new attitude towards children. Everyone is born with the same predispositions and basic needs. We all want love and connection, nourishment for all our senses and the opportunity to fulfil our potential while remaining autonomous. We have the ideal skills for this, such as enthusiasm and openness for lifelong play, learning and discovery.

In your books, you talk about the ecology of childhood. What do you mean by that?

The ecology of childhood is basically an attempt to summarise this new attitude towards the child in one term - an attitude based on mindfulness and trust. And before you ask: there is no one right attitude. I have already described my parents' attitude. They didn't start from themselves, but from us children, which meant that I was able to devote myself to my talents throughout my life. And, very importantly, they didn't interrupt my play and, above all, took it seriously.

What is the significance of children's play?

It has been scientifically proven that we can remember something much more easily if it touches us. It is therefore important not to destroy the children's rush from one excitement to the next. In play, the enthusiasm is always there, and not only that: children are incredibly persistent and focussed when playing. The child has not yet had a bad experience with something new. The relationship between parents and their child is not about pushing the child to do something, it is much more about not putting obstacles in the child's way. Every child would experience what I experienced.

If it didn't go to school?

If it were allowed to develop freely.

So you can't set any boundaries for children?

I wouldn't talk about boundaries. But I do think that you should give your children some guidance. A boundary is an exercise of power, an orientation can be a point of reference for living together. That's a different attitude. There is no justification for treating and communicating differently with a child than with your own partner - for example, if they don't eat properly. You also don't tell your husband: Eat clean or you'll go to your room! If you don't tell your husband, there is no reason why you should tell your child. With this attitude, the child can continue to see itself as what it was born to be: the right person in the right place at the right time.

And we adults don't see it as that person?

For centuries, we assumed that the child was born as a virtual zero, the point zero of development. Adults are the fully developed plus version. And education by parents and teachers turns the child into a viable adult over the years. We have positioned ourselves towards children accordingly.
(André Stern stands up, stands close to me with his arms crossed and looks down at me.)
Well, how does that feel? I exercise my power and tell you what you need ... Kind of uncomfortable, isn't it?
(He laughs and sits down again.)

If I were to say in a lecture that children need boundaries, I would have 500 people in the room who would more or less agree. But to demonstrate how obsolete this attitude is, I would only need to replace the word «children» with «women». And I would be less well received.

But is that accepted for children?

We don't take children seriously, we don't take their play seriously. We perceive them as dwarves who need our education. And that is highly discriminatory. Most children are symbolically caught between two poles.
(André Stern spreads his arms, looks from one hand to the other).

On the one hand the «I'm just right the way I am» pole and on the other the «You don't fulfil my expectations» pole. And this contradiction tears the child apart inside and makes them ill. The child therefore tries to resolve this contradiction. But it cannot change the adult's point of view, it can only change its own ...

... until it feels just as deficient as all the adults around it?

And that hurts the child very, very much - and won't let it go for the rest of its life. And you know what? Almost everyone has such a wounded child inside them.

But let's be honest: free development, no rules, guidelines or limits - others have had this idea before.

They allude to the laissez-faire principle of the 1968 generation, the antithesis of black pedagogy (a generic term for educational methods that include violence and intimidation as methods). In both cases, it is about the ideas of adults that are imposed on the child and therefore do not do them justice. That is not my principle. Although I leave my son Antonin to his own devices and don't correct him, I do care about what he does and join in.

Antonin is eight years old, what is he most interested in?

It is difficult to categorise. Antonin really soaks up the whole world. But if you were to pick out one area that he is particularly passionate about, it would be space travel. He has already made many contacts and has even found a good friend in the European Space Agency.

How did you support him?

I haven't had to do anything yet. As soon as you take an interest in something, the whole world conspires.

That means?

In his case, this means that he meets someone who says: «I know an engineer and make contact. That way I can create a connection that is valuable for both of us.» This engineer is a great asset to Antonin, just as Antonin is a great asset to him. He reconnects him with his old enthusiasm for his profession. The little boy asks the scientist questions to which he may not know the answers and which he has to think about. When the child goes out into the wide world, he meets other people with whom he connects. It doesn't matter whether they are children or adults, they have common interests. The child has no reason to identify with an age group.

Did you have friends of the same age who went to school when you were a child?

Of course.

How did you differ from your friends of the same age as a child?

Not at all. Our world is a dazzling world full of differences. We feel indispensable and unique in the midst of this diversity. Children actually show us what a better world would be like, as they don't recognise hierarchies between people or professions. They don't have to learn tolerance because they don't know intolerance.

What does your wife do for a living?

Pauline is an actress. We are both travelling a lot, but I also often work from home. Why do you ask?

To enable your children to do what you enable your children to do, you need at least one parent who doesn't work but is at home?

There is always someone at home with us. We live with my parents and my sister. But first of all: it's not about keeping the child «at home», but letting them choose for themselves which paths they want to take. The child wants to go out into the wide world. That requires you to be there as a parent. But not geographically. The only thing parents need to be careful of is that they give their child a safe harbour. This is the place where you tell the child: «I love you because you are who you are.» In this way, the child does not have to cover up its true qualities with any concepts or ideas that its parents, teachers or carers have about it. It remains what it is - a giant. The exciting thing is: if you really live this new attitude, then the concept of childhood actually disappears. Because this term comes from us adults. And we adults lock our children in a ghetto, the ghetto of childhood.

That sounds very dramatic. Aren't you overburdening the children?

How can freedom be overwhelming? It only overwhelms you if you're not used to it. You can't be too free.

One of your activities is to advise teachers. What do you tell them?

There are two things that teachers like to take away from conversations with me. Firstly, the new attitude: «I love you because of who you are.» If you meet the child like this, they will still remember it in 50 years' time, and that takes all the pressure off. The other thing is the enthusiasm that is exemplified. Many teachers complain to me with tears in their eyes and ask how they can inspire their pupils again.

How do you answer them?

You can touch them with your tears, but you can't inspire them. We must be aware that as adults we are constantly role models for children.

Recently, my five-year-old daughter put on her dance leotard, got her children's ballet book ready and started dancing the routines. She was completely absorbed in her performance. But we had an appointment and had to leave.

Have you interrupted your game?

Yes, and it didn't feel good.

So why are you doing it?

Maybe because that's how you grew up. Because you would offend the other person if you cancelled a date at such short notice.

That is the weight of our culture. And I don't know how you can resolve this conflict. Perhaps you can find a good form of communication with your daughter in which you tell her: «Listen, we now have this agreement that we want to honour. This will happen again and again in life. But after that, you can carry on playing.» Children need to know that they can resume their play seamlessly, then they can live well with interruptions. I had this certainty, my sons have it too.

Do most children today have too many (compulsory) appointments?

Unfortunately. Children can cope very well with frustration and stress as long as these moments do not predominate. But «no» is too prevalent in a child's life.

Many parents today complain about their children's media consumption.

The real problem is that the real world is not as appetising for most children as the virtual world, which is why they disappear into it. In the video game, your skin colour, your school performance and your gender don't matter. In the virtual world, you are a hero. You can play, absolutely freely, because parents don't understand what's going on. If we see that our children are diving into the virtual world because that's the only place where they have this freedom, we should make sure that they feel more comfortable in the real world - in other words, with us.

Book tips

• André Stern: «Playing to feel, learn and live» Elisabeth Sandmann Verlag 2016, 144 pages, approx. 32 francs
• André Stern: "... and I never went to school. Stories of a happy child" ZS Verlag 2009, 182 pages, approx. 25 francs

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